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Tier 2 battlecruiser gankers (graph)

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Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 12:45:00 - [1] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 12:54:07 Have a look at this graph here. My thoughts: * Myrmidon looks very weak. And ive shown it both with medium and heavy drones. Are the 3 extra high slots supposed to compensate for its weak damage output? I dont know. Its strange to see a gallente ship that far down in the dps league. I think ccp intends Brutix to be the gallente battlecruiser ganker. At least Brutix looks really good in these graphs. * Hurricane looks very strong for a minmatar ship. Im glad to see the semi-crappy Cyclone get a good replacement tbh. * Harbinger will hurt if it uses its range advantage. I know its not visible in this chart, but the ship has more than 600 dps at 22500 meters away when switching to Scorch. Ouch. * Drake with heavy assault missiles might look weak here, but when you take into account its fantastic tanking abilities with the 6 medium slots, it wont matter. And if it uses Rage missiles, it has 577 dps... is this really balanced? Oh well. Whats your thoughts on this? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 12:54:00 - [2] Originally by: Ishana my thoughts are you're using T2 damage ammo on everything but the drake. Redo your graph with either fury missiles or give every ship T1 ammo. Yeah, I missed that one. I cant use Fury because the excel sheet seems to have some bugs with it, but with Rage, it shows 577 dps for the Drake, which is pretty scary. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 14:41:00 - [3] The chart is just to show the gank setups. Of course you cant fit most ships in Eve with BOTH tank and gank at the same time. Usually some kind of compromise is needed, like fitting lower tier guns to get a good tank. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 14:57:00 - [4] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 14:58:39 Originally by: Alkeena Originally by: Jim McGregor The chart is just to show the gank setups. Of course you cant fit most ships in Eve with BOTH tank and gank at the same time. Usually some kind of compromise is needed, like fitting lower tier guns to get a good tank. Point is, that doesnt seem to be the case with the Hurricane. Unbalanced? I think so. (As noted above, possibly so with the other ships as well, I just havent looked into it in any great depth) ~Alkeena Its about as overpowered as the Megathron is to the Tempest for close range. Im just happy to see a good minmatar ship in the class. Besides, the Drake is probably the greatest ganker of them all since it can fit 3 damage mods without hurting its own tank. And I think the Harbinger will be very hard to kill as well. I agree that the Myrmidon looks a bit underpowered to the rest, but dont for a second expect that the minmatar ship should be worse than the gallente one just because thats the way it normally is. Minmatar needs some ships in their fleets that are better than the gallente ones tbh. The race needs it. Just like Amarr. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:14:00 - [5] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 15:16:31 Originally by: Alkeena BCs this powerful step on too many toes imho. ~Alkeena Only because its minmatar and not gallente. People arent used to seeing minnies get good ships. If you truly hate seeing 80% Ravens, Megathrons and Dominixes, then you should welcome good ships for the other races as well. And dont worry about Hurricane replacing Tempests ffs... that wont happen, even if Tempest is kind of crappy so not many want to fly it. Its the least used battleship in the game, according to the old published stats from the devs. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Alkeena Originally by: Jim McGregor Its about as overpowered as the Megathron is to the Tempest for close range. You keep saying this in several threads...EVE IS NOT about 1v1s. Yes they happen, but they are exceptionally rare in the grand scheme of things. Fact is the better range of ACs, speed of the tempy, and extra mid for EW make coupled with a comparable tank and limited cap dependence makes the the tempy a superior gang ship to the blasterthron. Yes gallente ships excell in solo engagements. If you want to get anywhere in EVE though you do it with friends, thefore the tempy is the superior ship in my opinion. Ok, Eve is not about 1 vs 1 (for some people). Then nobody will have problems with the Hurricane being the best at that instead of the Myrmidon. In fact, myrmidon looks to be a excellent drone support ship. So all is good. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Roxanna Kell what i hate about this graph is that you never took into account the amount of ammo you will be able to carry per launcher/turret. heavy assault launchers don't carry all that much. with the sick rof you ll be reloading in no time. Actually, the graph takes the reloading time into account when displaying average dps. I dont know exacly how many missiles you will be able to have in the launchers, but the dps is correct anyway (with reloads). --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:48:00 - [8] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 15:48:51 Originally by: Alkeena Dones will be popped in the first 30 seconds of the engagement, at which point its sole use will be as a damage sink and as an extra mid-slot. May as well have just brought a Blackbird or Celestis. Thats the disadvantage of drone ships, yeah. People dont like being hammered by drones if they can avoid it. So your job is to make sure they dont get killed, either by using ecm, dampeners (slows down targeting) or whatever. And if 4 drones get killed in 30 seconds, you are facing some serious dps... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:55:00 - [9] Originally by: keepiru Yes, but Kali changes all that, with the HP buff and 50% buff to plates/extenders, any ship which CANT get a good plated setup is dead meat. To be fair, they should increase capacitators as well. As it stands now, I think cap users are losing out big time with this change. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:07:00 - [10] Originally by: Scordite Originally by: Jim McGregor * Harbinger will hurt if it uses its range advantage. I know its not visible in this chart, but the ship has more than 600 dps at 22500 meters away when switching to Scorch. Ouch. Now factor in resistances. I'm not whining, I think the harbinger is a nice ship. It's just lasers and omnitanks and all that jazz Also, as you are aware of, there are no 25km or 30km warp scramblers unless you're loaded. It shouldn't take faction mods to make tech1 ships competitive. I know about the scrambler range. I tried discussing it with the gallente crowd in the blaster ammo thread I started, but they say nobody ever fights solo so it doesnt matter... Oh well. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:23:00 - [11] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 16:23:21 Originally by: Takahashi Arran 3. the drake at this time will never use standard or fury heavy missiles, you'd need to devote 3/4 mids to catching an enemy and staying in range- instead people will load up javelin heavy assaults (100km range for 10%less dps atm- this is where the drake is transformed from underpowered to awsome) 385 dps from 0 to 100 km with 2 damage mods... its pretty good. None of the other battlecruisers come close to that range. So yeah, that will probably become pretty popular as gang support. For comparison, the Raven with no damage mods and tech 2 Siege Launchers have 374 dps...this goes to 619 dps with 3 damage mods though. Raven really, really benefits from damage mods, thats for sure... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:23:00 - [12] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 17:23:11 Originally by: Roxanna Kell what you need to bear im mind is that missiles only do one damage type at the time, were other races its either 2 or all 4. and if i equip multiple dmg types on each launcher than that dps is reduced significantly. You say that like its a advantage or something... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 16:23:21 Originally by: Takahashi Arran 3. the drake at this time will never use standard or fury heavy missiles, you'd need to devote 3/4 mids to catching an enemy and staying in range- instead people will load up javelin heavy assaults (100km range for 10%less dps atm- this is where the drake is transformed from underpowered to awsome) 385 dps from 0 to 100 km with 2 damage mods... its pretty good. None of the other battlecruisers come close to that range. So yeah, that will probably become pretty popular as gang support. Who cares about range? My cover will put me just in range. Oh, 385 DPS? Two time less, than other BCs? But you are Caldari, it is easy mode! Who cares about such stupid support thing as gang support? Let's Hurricane will be good gang support, but Drake will be damage dealer. So, this new Drake is peace of .* Quote: For comparison, the Raven with no damage mods and tech 2 Siege Launchers have 374 dps...this goes to 619 dps with 3 damage mods though. Raven really, really benefits from damage mods, thats for sure... Yes, Raven suxx too. It was discussed zillions times. A) The dps was in relation to the range. It clearly states it was too. No other battlecruiser has that dps at 100 km. That was what was said. Good for gang support because if you start shooting at someone from 100 km, you know what he does, right? B) Its not 2 times less than any other battlecruiser. Check the graph? C) My character is caldari because they had good starting attributes. I fly minmatar ships. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Zixxa Aha, long-range weapon without alfa-strike at all. So we, Caldari are happy... Yeah, missiles should have alpha strike... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:06:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 18:08:02 Originally by: keepiru I don't know how many Hurricane pilots will actually skill up all the way for HAML IIs and actually carry T2 Rage HAMs in their hold. I suspect not many. But since we're talking peak damage w. T2 ammo in a workable setup... . In my graph with only guns, Hurricane has even higher dps. So I would say No to HAM. :) Of course I used 425's, but the difference in dps is very slim...I think people will use 220's/180's and fit a bigger tank on it instead. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:22:00 - [16] Originally by: keepiru Umm. the Myrmidon has 6 highs and 6 turret slots on SISI now - also 6 lows. Umm ok... when Kali was deployed to the test server, it had 8 highs, 5 turret slots. And 5 lows. Im not sure if im happy or nervous about the ships still changing. I think more nervous. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:27:00 - [17] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 18:26:38 Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 18:25:38 Other stuff: all ammo is smaller, warp to 0km option, cap use from guns still the same, cap booster charges still same size =/ Heavy Assaults are 0.015m3, 1/4 of what they were before. HAML IIs hold 72 missiles now instead of 25 like before. Warp to 0 km option? To gates? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Nicocat Also, thanks for the pretty picture, Jim. I killed it because it was incorrect. And since the ships are still changing a lot, lets wait and see how the nerfbat hits them all. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:48:00 - [19] Im still hoping for the Warp to 0 to be real... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:54:00 - [20] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Jim McGregor Warp to 0 km option? To gates? AP takes you to 15km, but manual Warp-In options are now 0/10/20/30/50/70/100Km. Basically, everyone has instas - just like now - but sans the lag. Thats frigging fantastic. God, thats like the best change EVER to Eve. I really hope they dont change that back... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:55:00 - [21] Originally by: Tasty Burger Edited by: Tasty Burger on 03/11/2006 18:54:11 Originally by: keepiru Umm. the Myrmidon has 6 highs and 6 turret slots on SISI now - also 6 lows. You gotta be ******* kidding me. Now it has more lows/mids than the others, OUTDAMAGES ALL OF THEM, and remains more versatile? Not to mention its easy as pie to fit? This is outrageous... yay, yet another overpowered gallente drone boat! Another ishtar. Im thinking that if they are changing that boat, they are changing the others as well. So hopefully things will turn out OK. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:03:00 - [22] Originally by: keepiru Well, its not without problems - all BMs made before this new build don't work, so they have to nail that bug 1st, because I don't think anyone wants to have to run all over the galaxy removing all their cans from safes & stuff. They will fix it... :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:49:00 - [23] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Scordite So reloads are less frequent, ammo using ships can carry more ammo.. That's ammo users covered from a hp boost perspective (minus arty alpha issue). This leaves only lasers and blasters screwed. No, capacity got shrunk too, the only weapon that can hold more than before are heavy assault launchers. What? They made ammo smaller but also nerfed weapon capacity? Hmm ok, guess they think constant reloading is a needed part of the game... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:54:00 - [24] Originally by: keepiru Anyway, you can carry like, 20K Phased Plasma in a Hurricane now, that's nice enough Yeah, that sounds great. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

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